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Author Topic: 1964 Merc 650SS Twins  (Read 7468 times)
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AaronJ
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« on: October 22, 2011, 02:58:40 PM »

Team,

Though I'd start a new thread for these guys as I'll have plenty of Q's.

First the pics.

The working twin 1...


The non-working twin 2...


I fired twin 1 up today. Was not too hard to get going and actually the first time I've ever fired an outboard.  I made a mental note of how the seller did it and just replicated at home... plug in external wiring cables, +/- cables to +/- on battery and a second + cable from battery terminal onto + of starter solenoid to start her.

Now... she's rough. Does not like to idle, coughs and splutters, smokes like crazy at mid-higher revs (did not push it too high). 

Another first for me uploading a movie. Check it out and let me know what you think of how she runs... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upN40FRuEHU

These are the possible issues I noticed so far:

1. Lots of smoke at higher revs.
2. Seems like a fair bit of oil in the exhaust water. Is that just normal for a 2-stroke?
3. Does not want to idle.
4. Seemed like there was some smoke coming from the top of the leg, front side in near the mounting bracket. Could not pin-point the exact source.
5. Small amount of a brown/oily/milky goop came out between the front of the gearbox and leg seal/joint.

Note that I'm still planning a full rebuild, but at least I can start to identify some of the issues I'll have to deal with.

Twin 2 turns over fine but dose not fire. Not even a hint of firing. However it is a cleaner looking motor and looks like its loom was rewired at some stage.  I know this is a very broad question but what steps should I go through to see if I can locate the starting issue?
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gusto
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2011, 03:29:21 PM »

Hi  Aaron
Great lookn set of twins you have there, its a good sign the first one starts and I wouldn't worry bout the smoke too much is prob just a build up of old oil in the engine and exhaust from having not being run in a while also in the carby too probly causing the lack of idle. Probly also need gearbox seals for the gunk coming out.

As for second engine always start with the basics which are spark, fuel and compression and work back from there.
Hope this helps and good luck
Chris
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AaronJ
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2011, 04:26:30 PM »

Hey Chris. Thanks for the input. Have lined up my bro-in-law to swing by tomorrow with a compression tester, show me how to do that and a spark test.

The non-working twin 2 apparently spent its life in central Vic having never seen salt water, so I'm hoping it has a minor electrical issue and will be a sweet runner.
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MERCMAN
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2011, 07:46:51 AM »

Hi mate,
I watched you video. Everything looks to be fine and AOK. 2 strokes don't run real smooth without a load. Perhaps you are comparing the 650 at idle and moderate RPM's to your own car motor? Chalk and Cheese my boy!
BTW, If there is a need to operate the gears, always pause for a while between Forward and Reverse (& vice-versa) to allow the prop to stop spinning. One day when you see what's inside a Gear Box, you will see what I mean.

Also, it's not a real good practice to allow any prop to spin when it's out of the water. They are very dangerous things indeed. I know of a death of a young Lad as a result of a spinning prop.

Are the front face plates of the Twins identical? Check the writing about the twenty five years anniversary, I can't see it in one of your pics.

MERCMAN.
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AaronJ
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2011, 08:50:12 PM »

Hi Guy,
Yer, the gear thingy was just a slip. It only just sits in neutral and its tricky when trying to pull it out of gear, not to skip right across past neutral.
Re the idle... no no... was not expecting it to be like my car... jeeze man Wink But is is rough and will not idle in neutral for very long.
Also taken onboard your comment about safety and the prop. Duely noted.
And your final note.... yep, face plates are identical and both have the "Twenty Five Years of ........".  What's the story on this???

I took Chris's advise and did a compression and spark test on non-working twin 2. With the compression tester we had we could only access cylinders 1, 2 and 3. All showed between 100-105. There was plenty of pressure on 4 with a finger over the plug hole, so I think all's good there.

Next was the spark test... nothing, no spark, so I assumed an ignition issue.

My bro-in-law, who knows his motors, quizzed me about how I had it wired up (using the forward control cables to battery and jumping to the starter solenoid).  He asked about the ignitions key, to which I said nope, its not wired to work that way. He pushed me to try anyhow and guess what... turned the key and the motor cranked!  Somewhat embarrassed we repeated the spark test. Sparks-a-plenty!!!  However, it was too late to try it with fuel.

What a dill though hey? It never could have started yesterday because the ignition was OFF!  And working twin 1 only fired, because the ignition was in the on position.  I just copied what I saw the seller do and never even considered the forward control ignition was still active.  But it seems so obvious.

So fingers crossed, I'll try it again tomorrow night, and unless these is a fuel issue I can't see why it won't also fire up.
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gusto
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 09:12:22 PM »

Hi Aaron
Sounds good they should both be running tomorow bit of fuel ignition on Wink and you'll be in business.
Chris
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AaronJ
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 06:38:25 PM »

Chatting with Guy about this, but thought I'd post here for the record.

I can't get twin 2 to run.

It has good spark and good compression, but I think fuel is not getting to the carbs.

I primed the same as twin 1, of which I saw fuel empty into the carbs as I over-primed, but I can't even force this to happen with twin 2.

So I'm thinking if I can't force fuel into it, there must be some major blockage.

I'm going to strip and clean the carbs, pumps and lines and wanted to ask what cleaning product you guys recommend and any tips?

Cheers,
AJ
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MERCMAN
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 09:47:28 PM »

Hi mate,
I'm glad you posted it here. I've received and answered almost 250 PM's in the past years. Mostly they have been about motor issues. This type of info' may well assist others sometime.
Before you start fooling around with the Carbies, you may wish to confirm that fuel IS the real issue. Using a small diameter tube or straw, place about a tea spoon of juice down the throat of each carbie. Crank the engine with the choke on. You should get a splutter or even a good short bark from her.

Now you can proceed, knowing it's a real good chance it's a fuel issue.
You'll possibly have a stuck needle and seat in one or perhaps more carbies. Neat fuel (not E10) is fine to use as a cleaning agent. CRC make a good Carbie Cleaner if you have a few spare bucks. Once you remove the fuel line off the carbie, try & push fuel through with the primer bulb. This should flush most of the gunk out of the fuel pump & lines. Be sure to catch what comes out in a container so you can closely examine the blockage substance. It maybe rubber, gummed fuel, rust from an old fuel tank. This rubbish will give you a clue as to whats happened with the motor before you laid your mitts on it. You will need to check the fuel filters after the carbies are cleaned and adjusted.
Dismantle the carbie and blow out with compressed air after washing it with Carbie Cleaner or fuel. Check the needle levers for correct closing distance (refer manual) Check float condition and ensure no fuel is inside them and they float (in fuel) real well.
Check low speed jet adjustment screw in each carbie (in case someone has fooled around with it/them before)

This will keep you quiet for a while. Let us know how you get on.

MERCMAN.

I should add, always have a good fire extinguisher on hand when ever using petrol of other flammables.
 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 09:51:36 PM by MERCMAN » Logged

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AaronJ
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 08:52:57 AM »

Jeese you're bloody good Guy!
Twin 2, 1tsp fuel in each carb, 1/2 choke, 1/4 throttle, 2 tried and to life she came!
Not only to life, but really nice and smooth too compared to twin 1. No smoke!
But....the issues:

1. I only ran her for about 30 seconds as there is no water coming out of the lower cowl.
2. She's also stuck in gear.
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MERCMAN
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 10:10:36 AM »

Tell MERCMUM that!

Why aren't you at The Cup with all the Girls? Crazy man! Cool

  1. No water from your tell tail, doesn't neccessarily mean a pump problem, perhaps just a blockage. More often than not.. The block may still be receiving cooling water. However, as you don't know when the pump was last serviced, shutting her down was a good thing I reckon. The pump will eventually need looking at sometime before you use it, so I'd do it now. Put the motor on a boat or something solid annd clamp her up so you don't pull the motor over on to yourself whilst your working on her.

5 nuts to remove, be sure to locate all 5, plus the trim tab which is secured by an Allen Key from the hole in the top of the leg. Beneath the trim tab (once removed) you will see the final bolt which needs to be removed. Now, start yanking on the Box. You might need to overcome some rust at the joint of the Crankshaft and the Drive shaft. Don't be tempted to use a hammer or a screwdriver to prise the housing apart, you will stuff things.
Get back to me if she won't seperate and I'll talk you through that bit.
 
2. Stuck in Gear you say? mmm. We'll cover that issue when the box is off.

Just thinking... another reason for the excess smoke from your other donk could be the motor had been "winterized" the last time it was run by the previous owner?


MERCMAN.

  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 12:00:05 PM by MERCMAN » Logged

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AaronJ
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2011, 10:29:38 AM »

Thanks Guy.

2. I found I can push the gear selector (at motor) and hold it in neutral. However it jumps right back as soon as I let go. It also won't go past neutral to reverse. So definitely going to have to see how it goes once the gearbox is off.

3. I also noticed some rusty/silty material come out the prop exhaust.  Looks like it came out when it was first fired so must have been a deposit of some sort sitting in the exhaust somewhere. Its very fine (not sandy) and almost the wrong colour for rust. I'm wondering if it was taken on a road trip though a dusty area at some stage and has not been used since!? Puzzling.



Re winterizing. No idea. Certainly the smokey twin (twin 1) that I ran last week, has been pretty badly treated. Its really bashed around and I have to source a new lower cowl. Its history is unknown.

Twin 2 (that I fired today) is from Central Vic and looks to have lived a freshwater dominated life (based the sale/service sticker) and what the previous owner knew of it. So this is the one I'll focus on first.
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MERCMAN
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2011, 10:55:14 AM »

I'd say the shift issue is a result of frozen or stiff Reverse Locks. These are two claws that grab hold of the Tilt Pin when either Neutral of Reverse is selected.
You guys have had some rippa dust storms over the years in Vic. It's possibly the result of one or many of those storms and she hasn't been used since?
I'm off to the Club for a Cup lunch with MERCMAN and just maybe a few medicinal ales.
 
MERCMAN.
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AaronJ
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2011, 12:12:03 PM »

Mate, I am going to start putting money on your outboard calls. Stuff betting on the Cup!
Guess what's NOT there???
Tilt pin!

You know your "a dollar for every PM question"?  Well I want a dollar for every call you make right  Wink

Bloody amazing stuff there Guy.

I have a spare and am mid-way though swapping the 64 over with the 67, and will use the tilt pin of that. What's the bet she'll be fine with pin in place!!!

I also noticed this motor has been attached to the Swifty for a VERY long time.  Transom bolts look to have maybe never been touched since new (nylocs and painted over same colour as hull interior).  There are no other holes, marks, fills or anything to suggest this hull has ever had another motor attached to it. Nothing, not even other deck hardware.

Man, this is fun!!!
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AaronJ
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 02:16:42 PM »

Yep, have perfectly fine gear select. Where would I be without you Guy?

However, blew a fuse on the forward control line before I could a quick fire-up it to check for sure.  Next weekend it now has to be as off to the kitchen for a curry cook-up!

Was thinking about that rusty silt too. I reckon a good chance the last time it was used it was trailered in an area with loads of red mud and never flushed.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 02:18:58 PM by AaronJ » Logged

AaronJ
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 04:27:58 PM »

Ok, could not resist (found a fuse). A little short burst of twin 2 with forward control way out of adjustment:

http://youtu.be/OUDUatqyUX4
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